Comments for Becoming Creation http://becomingcreation.org Exploring and promoting the scientific, theological and personal meaning of creation. Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:35:23 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 Comment on Becoming Unwanted, Part 3 by Loren Haas http://becomingcreation.org/2009/12/becoming-unwanted-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-202 Loren Haas Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:35:23 +0000 http://becomingcreation.org/?p=242#comment-202 Doug, I read the series on your blog with a lot of empathy. I have been struggling with a similar dilemma at my church. The leadership is very much YEC, even taking the high school group to a creation museum in SoCal. My wife’s high school age son had a hard time setting through their presentations and gradually faded out of the youth group. My wife started at this church before we were married, attracted to the friendly, low key atmosphere, worship music and the pastor’s ability to teach the gospel message. After we were married they gave us the opportunity to start a divorce recovery ministry, something that we felt called to do. The snag came when an assistant pastor told me that a “brother” from a men’s group had reported to him that I believed in evolution. Clunk! I sat through an hour of lecturing, but just wanting to get on with ministering to people going through divorce I offered to not discuss anything about evolution in the divorce recovery group. How hard could that be? The divorce recovery group went well. I also started small, informal group for men in blended families. We talked about our struggles and prayed for each other. It was very rewarding to see many of those prayers be answered over the years! We also talked about jobs, theology and eventually creation/evolution. These guys knew me as a dedicated Christian and were surprised that I could believe in evolution, Over time they revealed that their own children’s faith was in conflict with the YEC teaching that received at church and what they were being taught in high school and college. I suggested some books to them and we returned to the subject occasionally the next couple years. I learned to not linger in the church office in order to avoid more questioning and preaching about evolution. When I did get “caught” I was told that evolution was a “dying theory” and it was just a matter of time before it was relegated to the “trash bin of history”. I also learned to avoid men’s bible study groups, men’s retreats and entreaties to view “The Truth Project” at a home study group. I focused on the divorce recovery group while other aspects of a healthy church life withered. Eventually, the worship services that I loved grew stagnant for me. We talked about finding another church, but the divorce recovery group was so very rewarding. I also got occasional encouragement sharing my belief in evolution. On a camping trip, the college age son of one of my blended family guys saw me reading Denis O. Lamoureux’s, “I Love Jesus and Accept Evolution”. He was full of questions and I gave him encouragement and a book list. His dad thanked me later for opening doors for him. I have been reading online about others that struggle in their church because of their acceptance of evolution. Your blog prompted me to explore other churches in my area. I did find a local church affiliated with American Baptist Churches that seemed to be open minded. After attending a couple of Sunday services my wife and I met with the pastor. Right away I felt we had found a welcoming home. He had no problems with evolution and it would be no problem to hold that view and be able to be teach it. The pastor did admit that the leaders of other churches in the area pray for him! He also encouraged us to continue our divorce recovery program with them. I am glad I stumbled across your blog, because it encouraged me to consider other options. Some have suggested that I should stay at my old church in order to be an agent for change. That would be good, if there was any inclination to want to change. I believe if I stay I would have to resign to be silent or speak-up and disrupt the fellowship. God had already provided a welcoming home- all I had to do was actively seek it. Doug,
I read the series on your blog with a lot of empathy. I have been struggling with a similar dilemma at my church. The leadership is very much YEC, even taking the high school group to a creation museum in SoCal. My wife’s high school age son had a hard time setting through their presentations and gradually faded out of the youth group.
My wife started at this church before we were married, attracted to the friendly, low key atmosphere, worship music and the pastor’s ability to teach the gospel message. After we were married they gave us the opportunity to start a divorce recovery ministry, something that we felt called to do. The snag came when an assistant pastor told me that a “brother” from a men’s group had reported to him that I believed in evolution. Clunk! I sat through an hour of lecturing, but just wanting to get on with ministering to people going through divorce I offered to not discuss anything about evolution in the divorce recovery group. How hard could that be?
The divorce recovery group went well. I also started small, informal group for men in blended families. We talked about our struggles and prayed for each other. It was very rewarding to see many of those prayers be answered over the years! We also talked about jobs, theology and eventually creation/evolution. These guys knew me as a dedicated Christian and were surprised that I could believe in evolution, Over time they revealed that their own children’s faith was in conflict with the YEC teaching that received at church and what they were being taught in high school and college. I suggested some books to them and we returned to the subject occasionally the next couple years.
I learned to not linger in the church office in order to avoid more questioning and preaching about evolution. When I did get “caught” I was told that evolution was a “dying theory” and it was just a matter of time before it was relegated to the “trash bin of history”. I also learned to avoid men’s bible study groups, men’s retreats and entreaties to view “The Truth Project” at a home study group. I focused on the divorce recovery group while other aspects of a healthy church life withered. Eventually, the worship services that I loved grew stagnant for me.
We talked about finding another church, but the divorce recovery group was so very rewarding. I also got occasional encouragement sharing my belief in evolution. On a camping trip, the college age son of one of my blended family guys saw me reading Denis O. Lamoureux’s, “I Love Jesus and Accept Evolution”. He was full of questions and I gave him encouragement and a book list. His dad thanked me later for opening doors for him.
I have been reading online about others that struggle in their church because of their acceptance of evolution. Your blog prompted me to explore other churches in my area. I did find a local church affiliated with American Baptist Churches that seemed to be open minded. After attending a couple of Sunday services my wife and I met with the pastor. Right away I felt we had found a welcoming home. He had no problems with evolution and it would be no problem to hold that view and be able to be teach it. The pastor did admit that the leaders of other churches in the area pray for him! He also encouraged us to continue our divorce recovery program with them.
I am glad I stumbled across your blog, because it encouraged me to consider other options. Some have suggested that I should stay at my old church in order to be an agent for change. That would be good, if there was any inclination to want to change. I believe if I stay I would have to resign to be silent or speak-up and disrupt the fellowship. God had already provided a welcoming home- all I had to do was actively seek it.

]]> Comment on Becoming Unwanted, Part 3 by Kevin Kramer http://becomingcreation.org/2009/12/becoming-unwanted-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-195 Kevin Kramer Tue, 02 Feb 2010 06:16:28 +0000 http://becomingcreation.org/?p=242#comment-195 Doug, I thank you for sharing your story. Unfortunately, I know several people with similar stories. As I read your <b>Becoming Unwanted</b> posts, I grieved for you and your family. I also grieve for the church, which should be a place where we <b>Are Wanted</b>. You state in your second conclusion/assumption that most Christians have an outdated view of epistemology. Is it also fair to say that most Christians have an outdated view of ecclesiology? Just as positivism affects the modern’s understanding of knowledge, does our culture equally affects our understanding of the church? Perhaps contemplating the following questions may help you answer your questions. What is the purpose of the church? What does it look like in our culture? Does the church's purpose and/or contextualization depend upon the individual's personality and history? I’ll attempt to answer my questions in the near future with a follow-up comment. For now, I will conclude with another question. Is the evangelical church obsessed with didacticism. Doug, I thank you for sharing your story. Unfortunately, I know several people with similar stories. As I read your Becoming Unwanted posts, I grieved for you and your family. I also grieve for the church, which should be a place where we Are Wanted.

You state in your second conclusion/assumption that most Christians have an outdated view of epistemology. Is it also fair to say that most Christians have an outdated view of ecclesiology? Just as positivism affects the modern’s understanding of knowledge, does our culture equally affects our understanding of the church?

Perhaps contemplating the following questions may help you answer your questions. What is the purpose of the church? What does it look like in our culture? Does the church’s purpose and/or contextualization depend upon the individual’s personality and history? I’ll attempt to answer my questions in the near future with a follow-up comment. For now, I will conclude with another question. Is the evangelical church obsessed with didacticism.

]]> Comment on Becoming Unwanted, Part 3 by steve martin http://becomingcreation.org/2009/12/becoming-unwanted-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-193 steve martin Fri, 01 Jan 2010 19:22:01 +0000 http://becomingcreation.org/?p=242#comment-193 Hi Doug, Happy New Year! Thanks for that summary. To really respond to this fully probably requires a long discussion over a coffee (or several dozen!) rather than brief comments on a blog. On your conclusions and assumptions, I’ll just say that my own list may be somewhat different but that we share a similar trajectory. The more urgent response you are seeking is to the “Next Steps”. The answer to this is of course, very personal and will be different for different people in different situations. But maybe other accounts of people in similar situations will help. So here is mine. About a decade ago, I came to the point where I said “I’m never going to another Evangelical church”. No need for the whole story, but our family decided to attend one “mainline” church (your option #1) for a while. However, after about 8 months my wife and I decided that just didn’t work for us; my hasty “no more evangelical church” was easy to say from the inside, but once outside I came to appreciate the incredible strengths of the evangelical tradition (which explains my now somewhat unrelenting advocacy of evangelicalism on my own blog). Then some friends of ours invited us to their Anglican church (yes another “mainline” church) and we instantly loved it. True, this was a mainline denomination with deep roots in the reformation and one that contains some very unorthodox leaders & congregations - with a diversity that is truly shocking (I’m now part of the same denomination as Shelby-Spong???!!!). But, this denomination also has a very strong evangelical wing (eg. John Stott, Michael Green) and some really great science / faith thinkers (eg. Polkinghorne, McGrath) and the church we found was not only evangelical, but didn’t carry the baggage of the evangelical church (or a lot of the Anglican baggage for that matter). This particular local church combines the strengths of strong orthodox Christian belief & a high view of the scriptures without any of the disadvantages of the fundamentalist bibliolatry that often goes with it. And it is also evangelistic & welcoming to many who may not have been in a church “for several generations”. So we are somewhat “fuzzy on the outside” (a good chunk of congregation probably wouldn’t have a clue on how to start to define “evangelical” – some pretty interesting discussions in the Christianity 101 and 201 courses we offer) but solid at the leadership level. As I probably don’t need to say, our church is far, far from perfect (we have exactly zero perfect members) but for my family, it is probably a perfect fit. Where does that leave you (given you may not have a choice like I did?). Not sure. Some quick answers to your other points: On #6, not a chance – simple read through your series demonstrates this. On #4, my inclination is no. Yes, I too have seen people do this but don’t think it is healthy in the long run. I think the most important question is #5 – what is best for your family. Hi Doug,

Happy New Year!

Thanks for that summary. To really respond to this fully probably requires a long discussion over a coffee (or several dozen!) rather than brief comments on a blog. On your conclusions and assumptions, I’ll just say that my own list may be somewhat different but that we share a similar trajectory. The more urgent response you are seeking is to the “Next Steps”. The answer to this is of course, very personal and will be different for different people in different situations. But maybe other accounts of people in similar situations will help. So here is mine.

About a decade ago, I came to the point where I said “I’m never going to another Evangelical church”. No need for the whole story, but our family decided to attend one “mainline” church (your option #1) for a while. However, after about 8 months my wife and I decided that just didn’t work for us; my hasty “no more evangelical church” was easy to say from the inside, but once outside I came to appreciate the incredible strengths of the evangelical tradition (which explains my now somewhat unrelenting advocacy of evangelicalism on my own blog).

Then some friends of ours invited us to their Anglican church (yes another “mainline” church) and we instantly loved it. True, this was a mainline denomination with deep roots in the reformation and one that contains some very unorthodox leaders & congregations – with a diversity that is truly shocking (I’m now part of the same denomination as Shelby-Spong???!!!). But, this denomination also has a very strong evangelical wing (eg. John Stott, Michael Green) and some really great science / faith thinkers (eg. Polkinghorne, McGrath) and the church we found was not only evangelical, but didn’t carry the baggage of the evangelical church (or a lot of the Anglican baggage for that matter). This particular local church combines the strengths of strong orthodox Christian belief & a high view of the scriptures without any of the disadvantages of the fundamentalist bibliolatry that often goes with it. And it is also evangelistic & welcoming to many who may not have been in a church “for several generations”. So we are somewhat “fuzzy on the outside” (a good chunk of congregation probably wouldn’t have a clue on how to start to define “evangelical” – some pretty interesting discussions in the Christianity 101 and 201 courses we offer) but solid at the leadership level.

As I probably don’t need to say, our church is far, far from perfect (we have exactly zero perfect members) but for my family, it is probably a perfect fit. Where does that leave you (given you may not have a choice like I did?). Not sure.

Some quick answers to your other points: On #6, not a chance – simple read through your series demonstrates this. On #4, my inclination is no. Yes, I too have seen people do this but don’t think it is healthy in the long run. I think the most important question is #5 – what is best for your family.

]]> Comment on Becoming Unwanted, Part 3 by John H. Armstrong http://becomingcreation.org/2009/12/becoming-unwanted-part-3/comment-page-1/#comment-192 John H. Armstrong Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:52:19 +0000 http://becomingcreation.org/?p=242#comment-192 Your honesty and integrity are what attract me to your insightful and honest struggle. You have provided some of the most thoughtful questions I have seen from an evangelical who sees the deep tragedy of what the church has become in America. Answers will not be easy, or even logical. They will come if you stay focused on Christ the Center and pursue the unity of the faith in the bonds of peace. The problem with your church experience, to this point, is that you have tasted the bitter water of sectarianism at its worse. At the same time the problem is personal because you are a person made in Christ's image and made for his kingdom. We must somehow get the personal and the community back together, not split apart as we are doing in the "emerging context" of so much we call evangelical today. Your honesty and integrity are what attract me to your insightful and honest struggle. You have provided some of the most thoughtful questions I have seen from an evangelical who sees the deep tragedy of what the church has become in America. Answers will not be easy, or even logical. They will come if you stay focused on Christ the Center and pursue the unity of the faith in the bonds of peace. The problem with your church experience, to this point, is that you have tasted the bitter water of sectarianism at its worse. At the same time the problem is personal because you are a person made in Christ’s image and made for his kingdom. We must somehow get the personal and the community back together, not split apart as we are doing in the “emerging context” of so much we call evangelical today.

]]> Comment on Becoming Unwanted, Part 2 by Steve Allison http://becomingcreation.org/2009/12/becoming-unwanted-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-187 Steve Allison Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:43:02 +0000 http://becomingcreation.org/?p=215#comment-187 It appears to me you have acted honorably and with patience throughout, showing a fine Christian spirit. I know something of what you are going through. I'm a Church of Christ preacher's son and have remained loyal throughout my life. But it has been hard. As you know, the CofC and the Christian Church have the same origin, the major difference being our insistence on only A Capella music. It, along with immersion baptism (and it has to be for the specific correct purpose) serve for boundary maintenance and identity markers. Fortunately I haven't had to fill out a questionnaire for teaching, a task I find enjoyable and meaningful. But one reason I've avoided becoming a Deacon is because a questionnaire has been required and is similar to yours. Have always tried to keep my opinions to myself on origin and inspiration matters. I'm hoping your situation finds a happy resolution. It appears to me you have acted honorably and with patience throughout, showing a fine Christian spirit. I know something of what you are going through. I’m a Church of Christ preacher’s son and have remained loyal throughout my life. But it has been hard. As you know, the CofC and the Christian Church have the same origin, the major difference being our insistence on only A Capella music. It, along with immersion baptism (and it has to be for the specific correct purpose) serve for boundary maintenance and identity markers. Fortunately I haven’t had to fill out a questionnaire for teaching, a task I find enjoyable and meaningful. But one reason I’ve avoided becoming a Deacon is because a questionnaire has been required and is similar to yours. Have always tried to keep my opinions to myself on origin and inspiration matters. I’m hoping your situation finds a happy resolution.

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